Forum Activity for @royb

Just to beat a dead horse, I've confirmed that Jean Ritchie's book did originally come out in 1963, and John Pearse published a like titled instruction book in 1970.  I am enjoying the 'folksy', personalized writing of Robert Force's book, however.

And Skip, I do understand that the note order doesn't change with the VSL being longer, but his string gauge recommendations and low and high chart for each don't work for me, I don't think.  Thanks

I think there's a proofing error there. In his description on page 66-67 he writes"~~where the mode's most major-sounding tonality is found. The Ionian mode originally began at the note C on the third fret." Then in the chart on page 109, in the Ionian row, he has C  under 'original tonality' but in the last column does not have a tuning showing the GCgg  [X  X+3 XX] tuning. Instead he has the CFCC tuning. Further down on page 67, he shows X+3 X XX as a newer tuning [what we expect for this mode].

So if he actually strums CFCC expecting a C Chord???

The VSL doesn't affect the note order, the notes remain the same, they just cover more length.  

 C D E F G A B C

  1  2  3 4 5 6  7 8

  C  G  G

   1  5   5

My poor beginner brain is exploding!  I've hardly learned to tune and play in Ionian and Mixolydian, and still can't wrap my head around the 1-5-5 etc. system, and now you're talking about reverse tunings? :)  I did notice that the book bases everything on a 24" VSL (which concept I was able to transfer from guitar scale length).  My large, older dulcimer is 28.5", as I've mentioned, so it's almost a baritone in VSL, if not build.  I've had to translate some concepts in the book to this longer, larger instrument.

I've been reading the book online, but sometimes you just need to hold a book in your hands, so I ordered a used copy.

Lastly, I was curious about the authors' comment about a lack of instruction books partially motivating them to write theirs.  I haven't read the whole book yet, but didn't they read Jean Ritchie's Dulcimer Book when they started on their journey?  I believe it first came out in 1963 (?), so it should have been readily available when they were writing theirs.  Maybe I should read the site that Strumelia suggested, about the writing of the book.

Dusty you correctly surmised the reverse tunings in the chart while I was typing my endless novel.

It's worth reading Robert Force's story about the book:
https://robertforce.com/SongsAndInstruction/InSearchOfTheWildDulcimer.html

And you can read the book itself online here:
https://robertforce.com/SongsAndInstruction/InSearchOfTheWildDulcimer-PDFs.html

NOTES:  in the "Tuning chart" page, at bottom he states the string length as being 24"... quite a short vsl.

He also states the strings as being listed 'from low to high', therefore he writes his mixolydian tuning in the chart from top to bottom: DADD meaning the top D is the low bass string and the two bottom d's are the pair of melody strings. He refers to the melody string s , plural. He lists the gauges as 22(low bass), 12, and 10 (0.22, 0.12, and 0.10)

He's giving DGdd as the tuning for Ionian mode. That's a 'reverse Ionian' tuning for the key of G.

Why that somewhat unusual tuning for playing in ionian mode? I figure this came about because when he tuned to DAAA on a 24" scale with the melody strings being 0.10, they were just too floppy for him to think playable. The third fret on the melody strings in DGdd is a G note, so that's the tonic/key he indicated. But if you tried to tune typically (1-5-5) for ionian in the key of G, you'd tune Gddd. The Bass string would break long before hitting that higher G, and it'd likely be too loose and jangly if tuned to the G below the usual D.  To avoid breaking the bass or middle string is the reason some folks use a 'reverse tuning'- where the tonic low note is instead on the middle string and the heavy string is tuned instead to a fifth below the tonic. The bass and middle string notes get swapped. It saves strings from breaking or from being too low to play.
For the key of G that reverse tuning would then be DGdd as in the chart, with the middle string taking over the job of the tonic low note, the melody strings playing high g tonic on the 3rd fret, and the bass string tuned to a fifth from the tonic (the 5th note in the key of G being a D) but in the lower octave. The bass and middle strings have exchanged duties, and you don't break any strings.

If the scale length of the person mapping out the tuning chart had been a more typical 26-28" length, then the normal key of D ionian tuning of DAAA would have worked fine. OR, it also would have also worked fine in DAAA on a 24" scale if he had put heavier strings on.
It's little wonder folks tuned up from the key of C to the key of D if they were making or playing 24" scale dulcimers. I also notice he has the chart use the key of E for aeolian mode. I think a lot of this was to accommodate that short 24" scale whoever wrote the chart was working with, assuming they didn't want to try changing to heavier strings for whatever reasons.

Robert's intro clearly states that he (and others he was working with) didn't really know much of anything about dulcimers or how they were traditionally played when they started having fun with them. They experimented, improvised, adapted, and learned as they went along.

I think those tunings listed in the back of the book would be considered "reverse" ionian tunings, correct? CFCC, for example, is an Ionian tuning in the key of F.  What is reversed are the drones, with the 5th on the bass sting and the root on the middle string.

That's wild!

Bravo @royb!!!

To return to my original question, concerning Ionian tuning and In Search of the Wild Dulcimer, I just found my answer, as to why Robert Force said Ionian doesn't sound good in open tuning.  At the back of the book he's got a "Range and Tuning Guide".  Under Ionian, he lists the notes as CFCC, DGDD or EAEE (with doubled melody strings).  My understanding from every other source is that Ionian would be CGGG, DAAA, etc..  None of his other named modes matches my understanding of the Ionian intervals.  Don't know where he got this one, but it would explain his opinion about open tuning in his version of this mode.  Now we can all sleep tonight :)

To complicate matters, as I recall, one of Jean Ritchie's instructional recordings has Jean telling how her dad, Balis, told to tune the dulcimer "Bim, bim, bom," and on another recording, she has him saying to tune "Bim, bim, bim , bom."  Both mean the bass is tuned then the other strings (whether 2 strings or 3) are tuned to the 5th above the bass.  Love me some Jean Ritchie!

You know, I have to tell all of you - I also belong to the Acoustic Guitar Forum, and this group is a lot better, with way more enjoyable interaction.  Maybe dulcimer players do actually have more fun! And I am enjoying how my original Ionian tuning question has morphed into selling buttons at zero profit and building dulcimers for the experience, with "meager" return.

Lisa, that's the very secret of success in dulcimer-building!   Spend lots on tools, equipment and lumber, and you'll get a guaranteed meager return!  It's the (modern) American way!

Well, maybe I could invest the tens of dollars I make with Dulcimore making and start me a button making empire? lol

How to make $20 by selling dulcimer buttons:
Start by spending $70 to make and mail a dozen of them.

You aint' got none posted for sale yet? I'll take one....

Two buttons, bim Bim Bom and bim bim Bom.

[quote="Strumelia"]

I really think there should be a button one could wear that just says: bim bim BOM.

I'd wear one!

I really think there should be a button one could wear that just says: bim bim BOM.

[quote="RoyB"]

[quote="ocean-daughter"]

I think some of the dulcimer renaissance pioneers developed their own ways of thinking and talking about theory and dulcimer playing.  For instance Force and d'Ossche playing the dulcimer with it "sideways" on a strap, though they still fretted and strummed "overhand" like lap players would.  And I've heard people refer to tunings as "AAD" or "CAD", treble to bass.

Thanks, I'm starting to figure that out, as I read more about the dulcimer, especially from older sources.  I did note that Jean Ritchie, for one, would indicate GGC, where today we'd say CGG.

[/quote]

And Jeans daddy Balis, "you tune her like this: Bim - bim - BOM."

I just realized we'll be visiting our daughter and her family in Colorado Springs that day...they do have a nice porch, so I'll make sure to go out there!  I might also try to record something in advance, to post on that day. 

@ken-hulme On Orkney!?!  That sounds amazing! 

I've always kind of wanted to go to Anglesey and Holy Island... maybe someday. 

[quote="ocean-daughter"]

I think some of the dulcimer renaissance pioneers developed their own ways of thinking and talking about theory and dulcimer playing.  For instance Force and d'Ossche playing the dulcimer with it "sideways" on a strap, though they still fretted and strummed "overhand" like lap players would.  And I've heard people refer to tunings as "AAD" or "CAD", treble to bass.

Thanks, I'm starting to figure that out, as I read more about the dulcimer, especially from older sources.  I did note that Jean Ritchie, for one, would indicate GGC, where today we'd say CGG.

I think some of the dulcimer renaissance pioneers developed their own ways of thinking and talking about theory and dulcimer playing.  For instance Force and d'Ossche playing the dulcimer with it "sideways" on a strap, though they still fretted and strummed "overhand" like lap players would.  And I've heard people refer to tunings as "AAD" or "CAD", treble to bass.

Bobby & Dan, so good of you guys to do this.  

If it's OK to mention it here, Dulcimore Dan and I are making dulcimores with the proceeds minus shipping costs going to the Artisan Center and Troublesome Creek Guitars. Every little bit will help get them back on their feet.

@john-c-knopf I'll always remember coming upon you sitting on the sidewalk in Hindman playing your Uncle Will Singleton dulcimer.  I loved the sound of that thing and you played it wonderfully!  

The devastation in Hindman and surrounding areas is heartbreaking, I imagine, for all of us. 

This is horrifying news!  Several states are dealing with floods right now.  Hindman, home of the James E. Thomas dulcimer,  has been especially hard-hit.  Troublesome Creek often floods, but not like this.  Doug Naselroad, who runs Troublesome Creek Musical Instruments, the dulcimer museum and the downtown luthier shop has massive flooding problems right now.

Thanks for that update on Sarah!!! 

I've seen photos and videos of the horrible flooding in Kentucky, including devastation in Hindman.   My heart is with all whose lives have been uprooted by the torrent.  It was good to see on Facebook that mountain dulcimer friend Sarah Kate Morgan had marked herself as safe-- she is on staff at Hindman.  

Oh no, that is horrible!

Tragic news from Kentucky where a flood in Hindman has virtually destroyed the Dulcimer museum and Artisan School.  Loss of life and great sorrow.  Things can be replaced but lives tragically ended............great sorrow there.  News reports say this may be the most devastating flood in Kentucky history. David Bennett has posted photo's on the TTAD site of some of the destruction..........

Strumelia, I think the Seagull Merlin was developed for guitar players who wanted to try playing dulcimer.  I've tried them in the past, but never got comfortable with one, despite my years on guitar.  Somehow, I've taken pretty easily to noter dulcimer playing, with the instrument on my lap, Jean Ritchie style (and many thanks for your YouTube videos for tutorials).

I actually have two instruments - the 1969 28" VSL and an Apple Creek ACD100 24".  The latter has the 6+ fret, which, mainly tuning in Ionian and playing songs from Pete Seeger's American Favorite Ballads, I haven't had much use for as yet.  That book guided me through my first years on guitar, so I'm back to it now for dulcimer.

Thanks, Skip.  No need to hide.  "The confusion I'm feeling, ain't no time can tell".  That's exactly why I started the thread in the first place.  I did write to Bob Force, and await his response.

I've read his chapters on tuning, Mixolydian mode, and other modes and I'm uncomfortable with his approach to "music theory", which is what this thread is about, what's in his book. It seems to be a mixed bag of concepts and, maybe, opinions. 

This feeling is based on everything y'all have taught me along with a lot of time researching and thinking.

Now I'm gonna go hide.  

I agree with Dusty's thoughts in his last post below. As a banjo player, and as I'm sure many guitar players also know, there are 'open tunings' that create a satisfying tonic-note-heavy resolved sound when strummed across all open strings. Fiddlers sometimes use open tunings as well, in order to play tunes heavy on paired drone bowing- they call them cross tunings. In the dulcimer, DAd is such an open tuning, while DAA (for playing in ionian mode) is less so... until you fret the melody string on 3rd fret to create that high D note... and then it's not an 'open strum'.
Many of the young people during the 1960s folk revival who were discovering playing the mountain dulcimer started playing folk music on guitar. The use of a tuning like DAd that both facilitated making chords, playing barr chords, and which had an open/unfretted tonic chord... I imagine was naturally appealing to them.
They added the 6+ fret so they could play popular American folk songs from the newly favored 1-5-8 open string tuning. They also enjoyed turning their dulcimers up on the side to play them in guitar fashion, sometimes hanging them on straps and playing while standing up performing or jamming, and some even played them 'underhand' with their left hand wrapped around to the fretboard from underneath like guitar players do as well. They adjusted the dulcimer and its playing traditions to serve more modern needs.

I can't explain why, but I think the first 4 pages of chapter 4 have a big impact on this subject. It's a whole new way of looking at modes [for me, at least]. It's going to take awhile to digest.

I haven't figured out how the Ionian comment fits yet, probably never will. I don't think the current mode applications [theory?] apply though. He's coming at it from a different angle.

X X+3 XX is his take on DAd tuning. He starts on the melody string[s] [XX] then middle [X+3], then X an octave lower.

I downloaded the book from his site.

Thanks, Ken.  Although I've been singing and playing guitar for many years, music theory in any form has always alluded me, for some reason.  I did see the book is on Robert Force's website, but I've been reading it on Open Library, which I found a bit more reader friendly.  I may contact him about my question, though.

CGG and DAA are both Ionian Modal Tunings.  Instead of letters some folks use numbers to indicate the Modes generically -- rather than saying "CGG and DAA" the say  1-5-5 to indicate that 1 is 'whatever' bass note, and the Middle drone and Melody strings are both tuning "a fifth above" -- that is 5 note higher than the Bass note.  

Likewise DAd and CGc are both Mixolydian Modal tunes designated numerically 1-5-8.  The Middle drone is "a fifth above" and the Melody string is "an octave above" the Bass string. 

The other two commonly used Modal Tunings are Dorian -- numbered 1-5-4, and Aeolian -- numbered 1-5-7.  In Dorian tunings the Melody string is tuned "four notes higher" than the Bass.  In Aeolian the Melody string is tuned "7 notes higher" than the Bass string.

As an aside, you can always ask Robert Force what he meant directly.  He's still around and doing at least some Festivals.  In Search of... is available free online at www.robertforce.com.  Use the Contact to reach him directly.

In reading and rereading their x x+4 x x notation method, I'm not positive that their Ionian is my Ionian. CGG would not be notated the way they've written it, I don't think. In any event, you've confirmed what my ears heard - Ionian and Mixolydian sound fine when played open.

By the way, I just found that comment in the book and am still not sure what they mean by it.  Perhaps the idea is that the open strum in an ionian tuning does not include a "do" on the melody string. As someone who usually tunes to a 1-5-8 or mixolydian tuning, I can attest to how how nice it is to be able finish most songs by lifting up your fretting hand entirely and just resolving to an open strum.  The open strum in an ionian tuning sounds just fine as a chord but doesn't resolve the melody to the root or do the way our modern ears prefer.